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Q & A

We are building a list of frequently asked questions for your review.


NRF sponsored a public meeting, Feb 26, 2009 to provide information on the PCB contamination in the Upper Neuse basin.  The following is a list of audience questions from that meeting. 

Discussion Panel:

Peter deFur, Ph.D. -- Environmental Stewardship Concepts

Dr. Peter L. deFur is president of Environmental Stewardship Concepts and an Affiliate Associate Professor and Graduate Coordinator in the Center for Environmental Studies at Virginia Commonwealth University, where he conducts research on environmental health and ecological risk assessment.


Dr. Fred Pfaender -- University of North Carolina Superfund Basic Research Program

Dr. Pfaender is a Professor of Environmental Microbiology in Environmental Sciences and Engineering at the UNC School of Public Health. His research is concerned with microbially mediated transformations of xenobiotic chemicals in soil, marine and subsurface environments. The primary focus is on identification of the environmental factors that regulate microbial activities.


Drew Cade -- Lake Crabtree County Park

Drew is the Manager at Lake Crabtree County Park and was an active participant on the PCB task force created by local governments in 2005. Due to the PCB levels found in fish, Wake County has adopted a catch-and-release-only policy at Lake Crabtree and Crabtree Creek.


Formation of a Crabtree Committee

There is still work to be done to ensure the protection and education of our community regarding PCB contamination in the Neuse River Basin. If you are interested in taking an active or leadership role in that work, please contact the Upper Neuse RIVERKEEPER® at alissa@neuseriver.org or 919-856-1180 regarding your interest in participating and your schedule of availability.


Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) on PCBs

  • Have you, the panel members, seen anything (ecological, social, etc) in the community that you think is directly related to PCBs?
  • If I don't eat fish, why should I care?
  • We didn't put the pollution there. Why do we need to be involved in the cleanup?
  • What can the general public do to protect ourselves? Can we water our gardens; can we swim in it? How do we make sure we're safe?
  • Do we have an accurate picture of what areas are contaminated and which are not?
  • Is anyone working on a process through nanotechnology in which an organism can eat PCBs?
  • Assuming we stay the course of current remediation strategies, how long will the cleaning of soil and releasing of contaminants to the stream continue?
  • Was the sampling only taken during good weather? Or did it occur during storm events like Tropical Storm Alberto? How do you anticipate hurricane season impacting this?
  • Was the extent of the on-site contamination greater than originally thought? If so, how much?
  • What is the status of the EPA clean up?  Is it on track, on plan?
  • Are the larger soil particles (large rocks, etc.) that are not able to be put in the thermal process that gets rid of the PCBs all put into hazardous waste disposal or is there a process that can decontaminate them too?
  • What sampling locations, depths, and frequencies would you recommend downstream?
  • Does the thermal process occur 24/7?  Does the machine ever shut off for maintenance?
  • Is there a forecast year to dredge Lake Crabtree for flood control, as mentioned, to keep the lake from filling in?
  • Was the NCSU study on bi-valves published in a peer review journal?  Where can I find it?
  • Bi-valves are in water, not sediment, so what are the implications of the study that found they were having problems?
  • Is there any effect on drinking water? Are there PCBs in our City Water?
  • Do PCBs cause health issues related to Dementia, Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s?
  • How do we know fish and meat in stores are safe?  Are they tested?
  • Are other sites in the area, not connected to the Ward Transformer Site, being monitored for this type of contamination?


Have you, the panel members, seen anything (ecological, social, etc) in the community that you think is directly related to PCBs? Top

Drew

YMCA members, triathletes, parents; some patrons don't want to touch the water at all.  Visitation is going up but it's probably because of population growth.  The only fishing is social fishing on the outskirts of the lake; county policy is catch and release now.

Fred

The effects of PCBs are difficult and expensive to analyze; PCBs stick to everything and most of the toxicity is not apparent at low levels.  Lake Crabtree is in the middle of an urban area with inputs from all kinds of places, so the situation is always more complex than you think it is.  Some of what is coming into the creek and lake is going to take more money just to figure out what it is than to clean up.  The EPA is not going to pay for that.

There are pluses and minuses in regards to dredging; unless dredging is done carefully, it will just spread the sediment that is currently contained in the reservoirs everywhere.

If I don't eat fish, why should I care? Top

Peter

Are you going to have a baby someday?  It's not just about "me" -- it's about all of us.  If there are not people who are fishing there now [Lake Crabtree] to put food on the table, then there will be.  We are responsible for all members of our community.  If collective contamination is not great enough, then there are problems you will never see, but will occur nonetheless.  Mink populations in the Great Lakes collapsed [due to PCB contamination].  They didn't just get sick, they all died.  Wildlife will simply disappear; we have a responsibility to be honest and ethical stewards.

Drew

Tax payers dollars paid to create these wetland environments we all enjoy.  Wildlife is taking advantage of them.  Now it's compromised; do we leave the wildlife hanging? All of these things cannot read the signs, they are around them 24/7.

 

We didn't put the pollution there.  Why do we need to be involved in the cleanup? Top

Fred

Ward Transformer was originally built to contribute to electrical grid.  All of us want electricity.  We all contributed to this problem by demanding electricity; general electric and everyone else uses PCBs.  PCBs worked really well and they were cheap; our lifestyle has (unknowingly) demanded that these things be used and we should take responsibility for the cleaning up the consequences.

Peter

If a Potentially Responsible Party in this day and age is going to start down the road of cleanup, oftentimes the state, or maybe the EPA, will require that they post a bond to ensure that it will be cleaned up.  Cost of the cleanup was intended to be spread around.  At present, when public funds are used for cleanup, they are taxpayer dollars, provided to EPA's budget.  Before the 2000s, there actually was a fund.  Three small taxes were levied on types of products that were used at these types of sites by large companies.  The federal government no longer authorized the taxes in 2003, and the funds ran out.  So now, all tax payers must bear the burden.


What can the general public do to protect ourselves?  Can we water our gardens; can we swim in it?  How do we make sure we're safe? Top

Fred

The buzz word is exposure control.  It [exposure to PCBs] depends on your diet, where you lived before you came to Raleigh, and how old you were during exposure.  I just became a grandfather; while my daughter was pregnant, I bought and installed a water filter for her faucet.  If you want to do something to protect your own health, water filters are the cheapest, easiest, most effective method to limit your exposure.

Drew

You could probably water your plants.  Plants do not take up PCBs and PCBs are not dissolved in waters.


Do we have an accurate picture of what areas are contaminated and which are not? Top

Peter

I do not think it's complete.

Fred 

This is a model site; EPA people are here, they are competent, they care about what they're doing.  Did they pick the right technology?  They probably picked the right technology given what they had.  Thermal desorption works.  No PCBs are coming out of the smoke stack because they are basically burned.


Is anyone working on a process through nanotechnology in which an organism can eat PCBs? Top

Peter

No.  Microorganisms (bacteria, fungi) are being used, however.  The most effective kind is the one that grows in the complete absence of oxygen.  Then there's a method people are attempting to develop to use fungus (mushrooms, yeast, e.g.) to break down these complicated chemicals.

Fred

General Electric spent millions of dollars trying to develop a microorganism that could break these down.  Every time you have a storm event, you have water that trickles down into your anaerobic environments [making it difficult to use anaerobic environments].

Peter

Various metals help break it down.  These are still experimental.

Fred

People are uncomfortable with black carbon idea because it doesn't go anywhere.  PCBs just bind very tightly to the carbon.


Assuming we stay the course of current remediation strategies, how long will the cleaning of soil and releasing of contaminants to the stream continue? Top

Peter

You don't get any breakdown.  Sediment will build up and build up and at some point [implying that a dam will break or the waters will overflow the creek banks, leading to widespread deposition and contamination].

Drew

The reality is, we're providing flood control [through the reservoir and the lake].  At some point that capacity is going to be compromised.  It must be quantified so that we can establish a life cycle for the sediment.

Fred

I had heard from some of the EPA projections that it could take 9 years for the sediment with PCBs to be buried far enough for the benthic invertebrates not to come into contact with it, which is the source of the contamination in fish.  There are a lot of issues that go with dredging that could impact drinking water supplies farther downstream.

Drew, nodding

There are always communities downstream to consider.


Was the sampling only taken during good weather?  Or did it occur during storm events like Tropical Storm Alberto?  How do you anticipate hurricane season impacting this? Top

Fred

Some people from UNC went out on the Hog River during storms and their study revealed that 70% of sediment transport occurred during storm events.  You could get scouring.

Drew

Given the development around all these bodies of water (lots of asphalt), the possibility of flooding is increasing, which means greater chances of sediment disturbance.


Was the extent of the on-site contamination greater than originally thought?  If so, how much? Top

Luis Flores, EPA

Yes.  Since the beginning of the Removal Action the amount of soil requiring remediation has increased.  As of February 2009, it is estimated that when the removal action is completed, soil volumes will be more than twice the amount originally estimated in the work plan (from 100,000 tons to approximately 250,000 tons).

Fred

Contamination at Superfund sites is almost always greater than the original site investigation finds; this is not unique to Ward.


What is the status of the EPA clean up?  Is it on track, on plan?Top

Luis Flores, EPA

Yes.  The removal action is on track.  Due to the increase of the volume of soil requiring remediation, the removal action original schedule was extended.  As of the end of February 2009, it estimated that the on-going removal action will be completed this summer.


Are the larger soil particles (large rocks, etc.) that are not able to be put in the thermal process that gets rid of the PCBs all put into hazardous waste disposal or is there a process that can decontaminate them too?Top

Luis Flores, EPA

The thermal unit on-site is not used to treat the large particles.  Larger particles screened out of the TSCA regulated soil are sent to a secure landfill approved to receive this type of material.


What sampling locations, depths, and frequencies would you recommend downstream?Top

Luis Flores, EPA

Sampling locations, depth and frequencies for areas downstream of Ward Facility (Operable Unit 1 areas) will be determined during preparation of the Remedial Design work plan.

Fred

If there was a comprehensice survey that told us what was where downstream there would be a good basis for a fairly modest [clean up] effort.  Without that it could involve lots of samples regularly - like every few years.  Remember these are chemicals that do not move around rapidly.

Drew

Any deep areas, or old stream channels, that are likely to have stored the most sediment over time should be thoroughly profiled to locate "hot spots" that may benefit from cleanup.


Does the thermal process occur 24/7?  Does the machine ever shut off for maintenance?  Top

Luis Flores, EPA

The thermal unit at the Ward Site is scheduled to operate 24/7.  Yes, the system is shut down sometimes for scheduled maintenance and/or other repairs.


Is there a forecast year to dredge Lake Crabtree for flood control, as mentioned, to keep the lake from filling in?  Top

Drew

There is no forecast that I am aware of, but I am looking into it further.  I am certain that a sediment survey would be performed before an y determination would be made on a schedule.

 

Was the NCSU study on bi-valves published in a peer review journal?  Where can I find it? Top

Lehmann, Daniel W., Levine, Jay F. and Law, J. McHugh. (2007). "Polychlorinated Biphenyl Exposure Causes Gonadal Atrophy and Oxidative Stress in Corbicula fluminea Clams". Toxicologic Pathology, 35:3, 356 – 365. http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/01926230701230288


Bi-valves are in water, not sediment, so what are the implications of the study that found they were having problems? Top

Fred

Bivalves filter particles out of the water, digest the bacteria off the outside and spit the particles back out.  If the particles come from the sediment they will likely have PCBs on them and it therefore gets into the bivavle (clam/mussle).


Is there any effect on drinking water? Are there PCBs in our City Water? Top

Fred

It is unlikely - remember PCBs don't dissolve in water.  Since no one in Raleigh uses the contaminated lakes and creeks for a drinking water source it should not be a problem.  If the Neuse is contaminated that does pose a problem since it serves as a water source for downstream cities; that is one of the reasons determining how far downstream the contamination goes is so important.  However, one of the big difficulties with the Neuse is figuring out where things came from - lots of stuff gets in the river from all over the area.  There are probably much larger concerns than a few parts per billion (ppb) of pcbs.

City of Raleigh

The City of Raleigh does test for a PCB compound, but has never detected any presence.  The water treatment plant tests the finished water for PCB’s as decachlorobiphenyl.  The PCBs constituents are Aroclor 1016, Aroclor 1221, Aroclor 1232, Aroclor 1242, Aroclor 1248, Aroclor 1254, and Aroclor 1260 (Public Utilities Department)

 

Do PCBs cause health issues related to Dementia, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's? Top

Fred

We're not sure, but it is possible.  Since all those diseases can be impacted by hormones, and PCBs are endocrine disruptors it is possible.


How do we know fish and meat in stores are safe?  Are they tested? Top

Fred

They are not tested for PCBs.  Open ocean fish are usually ok since they don't live in a palce where there are PCBs


Are other sites in the area, not connected to the Ward Transformer Site, being monitored for this type of contamination? Top

Fred

There are other sites in the area, but there is no regular monitoring for PCB since it is a difficult and expensive analysis.


Drew

Ward had other properties in the Crabtree Creek watershed that may have contributed to the reach of the contamination into the Neuse.  There are also State advisories for PCBs in Rocky Branch and Walnut Creek areas which are south of Lake Crabtree/Crabtree Creek, but these are not connected to the Crabtree Creek watershed.


 
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